Wisconsin, Ohio, and other states having protests against governor bills to get rid of collective bargaining rights!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/19/947122/-Rally-in-Boston-for-Wisconsin-workers-Tuesday-2-22

Rally in Boston, Tuesday, Feb 22..

Phillymg wrote:

Jeff wrote:I think that unions have run their course. Labor laws are now hardwired into our way of life, protecting employees. And unions now exist to benefit themselves and politicians looking for votes. They do nothing really for people as far as fairness goes. That's what I think.

Therefore your opinion is fixed in stone that when a group of workers bands together for strength in numbers to bargain with an employer for pay, benefits, & working conditions.....that is *bad*. Instead workers should go back to the time when employers could dictate everything.....back before the 20th century.....back to company towns, company goons, indentured servitude, child labor, & slavery. Your position leaves *no room* for workers to band together. In any case there are millions of Americans who disagree with your position that 'unions have run their course.'

Businesses exist to benefit society.....not to make themselves & their stockholders rich. They are licensed by local, state, & federal governments to undertake commerce because that commerce will benefit society. Businesses sell products that society needs. The obligations of a business are to

produce products that are useful to society
sell those products to customers
treat their customers fairly
treat their employees fairly
& then & only then.....make a reasonable profit

First off, cutting off collective bargaining by the same means that it was established, which is by the will of the people via their State Representatives is perfectly suitable and gracefull. Second, your assertion that this hearkens back to slavery is an anorexic/bulemic sort of mentality, as if the call for morality would usher in harlot stoning and witch burning. Or that food is reminiscent of obesity, and that one should of accord starve oneself to stave off a certain hell. That's inflammatory and hardly rational. When a school teacher earns a hundred grand per year in wages and benefits for 37 weeks of classroom instructing, and I assume that other government union workers are similarly outfitted. That's not bargaining against slavery. It's plundering and gouging and raking with the aid of similarly corrupt politicians. And such an abuse of an honor system should result in the end of that priveledge.

Furthermore, this is about government workers, not private businesses. So I don't see the relevance that you'd even bring up private business, which by the way doesnt exist to benefit society, but rather to benefit the businessman. And that is a benefit to society.

JaneWI wrote:Report from Madison, WI on 2/19/2011. It was cold and sunny when I headed toward the state capital. I was rather nervous because I don't handle crowds well, but felt I needed to go because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I had not taken part in the event. Madison is known to be a friendly town so I hoped that it held true today, contrary to reporting by some news agencies.

Parking was easy to find and close to the capital. One lady stopped her vehicle so I could get across the street. We smiled at each other and waved. This is normal behavior for the people of this city, but still nice to see.

Upon approaching the capital square there were people holding signs reminding everyone that we were attending a peaceful demonstration. I also saw some people voluntarily picking up the little bit of litter that was in the capital square area.

It wasn't too crowded when I first got there. There was some music playing, I think someone giving a speech and people chanting “kill the bill”. I did some marching in front of the capital. Almost everyone had a smile and many said “thank you for coming”. Even though there was no tension in the crowd I felt like I was walking in the footsteps of the people that protested before and after the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, the March to Montgomery, the anti-Vietnam protests and others. It was heartwarming to know so many other people strongly believed the in collective bargaining.

After a short time more people arrived and I found a better place to stand so I could hear what was being said. There were a few speeches, unfortunately, I don't remember any specific names. All of the speeches were uplifting and positive.

There was a short parade of union members dressed in green and various other people walking in the street by the capital building.

I left about 11:45. At that time the protest was completely peaceful and positive. It was a great experience and I'm humbled to have taken part in this event and hope to repeat it soon.

I also have no idea how many people were there, but the area by the capital was full, so was the street in front of the capital as well as across the street from the capital.

I left before the Tea Party rally.

Thank you all for “listening” to my report from Madison.

*crosses fingers* that the image hosting works the first time.

Hi Jane I too was there in Madison today ~ returned about 3 hours ago ~ it was a good day ~ we were supporting the teachers & unions but also the unemployed ~ we hooked up with 2 groups one from Indiana & one from Michigan ~ hoping to return tomorrow but with the weather coming not sure as it's a 2 hour trek ~ I found the whole day to be positive as did you and very rewarding ~ it was an awesome day ~ our group was also interviewed by a tv crew & on the 10 oclock news as I was on this site I watched our interview on the unemployed & supporting the teachers & unions ~ it was amazing how many people there were the news said 55,000 wow that is something! It was a good day!

Jeff wrote:

Phillymg wrote:

Jeff wrote:I think that unions have run their course. Labor laws are now hardwired into our way of life, protecting employees. And unions now exist to benefit themselves and politicians looking for votes. They do nothing really for people as far as fairness goes. That's what I think.

Therefore your opinion is fixed in stone that when a group of workers bands together for strength in numbers to bargain with an employer for pay, benefits, & working conditions.....that is *bad*. Instead workers should go back to the time when employers could dictate everything.....back before the 20th century.....back to company towns, company goons, indentured servitude, child labor, & slavery. Your position leaves *no room* for workers to band together. In any case there are millions of Americans who disagree with your position that 'unions have run their course.'

Businesses exist to benefit society.....not to make themselves & their stockholders rich. They are licensed by local, state, & federal governments to undertake commerce because that commerce will benefit society. Businesses sell products that society needs. The obligations of a business are to

produce products that are useful to society
sell those products to customers
treat their customers fairly
treat their employees fairly
& then & only then.....make a reasonable profit

First off, cutting off collective bargaining by the same means that it was established, which is by the will of the people via their State Representatives is perfectly suitable and gracefull. Second, your assertion that this hearkens back to slavery is an anorexic/bulemic sort of mentality, as if the call for morality would usher in harlot stoning and witch burning. Or that food is reminiscent of obesity, and that one should of accord starve oneself to stave off a certain hell. That's inflammatory and hardly rational. When a school teacher earns a hundred grand per year in wages and benefits for 37 weeks of classroom instructing, and I assume that other government union workers are similarly outfitted. That's not bargaining against slavery. It's plundering and gouging and raking with the aid of similarly corrupt politicians. And such an abuse of an honor system should result in the end of that priveledge.

Furthermore, this is about government workers, not private businesses. So I don't see the relevance that you'd even bring up private business, which by the way doesnt exist to benefit society, but rather to benefit the businessman. And that is a benefit to society.

Letter from President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933-1945) to Luther C. Steward, President, National Federation of Federal Employees dated August 16, 1937

Excerpts of letter below, entire letter -- http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working
conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and
logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot
be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management.

The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and
employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any
organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of
public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by
those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

@mj, I'm glad you made it to the rally as well. The weather is going to keep me away today. My trip to Madison is about 2 hours. One of my main regrets is I couldn't stay that long yesterday, had a family birthday dinner.

Did you see anyone wearing "Legal Observer" signs? I'm still kind of curious about them.

Here's some information on "Legal Observers"

http://www.myspace.com/aclumadison/blog/347791332

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110220/APC0101/102200627/Both-sides-turn-out-for-latest-protests

I just don't know about this article from the Post Crescent. What strikes me is that some of the people interviewed have no idea the protest is about collective bargaining rights, for them it's about being sick of paying for retirement plans for other people.

This is about collective bargaining rights and this article confuses the issue and could lead more people to believe the protesters are after higher pay and benefits.

I find it disturbing that the conservatively slanted newspapers in my neck of the woods (Gannett News in NE WI) are suggesting union protesters have acted in a threatening manner to state legislators, pose a general threat of violence, and site individual bullying tactics displayed toward Walker supporters.
The local TV news stations also led their stories of the protest this weekend with a "fears for safety" focus - even though no violence broke out between opposing protester groups (union/tea party) this Saturday.

From all eye-witness accounts (individual and news service) the union protesters have gone out of their way to make this a peaceful protest.
I've read statements from Madison police saying there have been no arrests or displays of violence on union protesters part.

So what gives? Could this be the right using "fear tactics" yet again to manipulate public opinion? Sadly, too many people here believe - if they heard it on the teevee, or read it in the local papers - then it must be true.

The Post Crescent is Gannett News in NE WI as well. I haven't watched the local TV news and won't because they do have a conservative bent. Many people in this area don't realize the protests are about losing collective bargaining rights, not specific pay and benefits issues.

It could be they are using "fear tactics" and most people don't bother to look into it any further.

JaneWI wrote:http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110220/APC0101/102200627/Both-sides-turn-out-for-latest-protests

I just don't know about this article from the Post Crescent. What strikes me is that some of the people interviewed have no idea the protest is about collective bargaining rights, for them it's about being sick of paying for retirement plans for other people.

This is about collective bargaining rights and this article confuses the issue and could lead more people to believe the protesters are after higher pay and benefits.

That IS what Scott Walker WANTS people to believe. Last words I heard him speak were that union workers were being asked to make "small" concession to help balance WI budget short fall - focusing on the money NOT the collective bargaining rights he awants to PERMANENTLY strip away from workers.
Gannett News (Appleton Post-Crescent/GB Press Gazette,et al) is a very conservative news group. It sickens me that they are deliberately trying to manipulate the public. People need to see through this! Why aren't they reporting that the protesters/unions have ALREADY agreed to the monetary demands Walker has made on these union workers? You are correct - it is workers bargaining rights at stake - and Walkers mission to permanently destroy!

Taking away collective bargaining rights is not a "small" concession. I thought collective bargaining rights were considered to be a basic human right and agreeing to do away with them is not a "small" thing.

This whole area is very conservative and many people don't want to know the facts, they simply want the talking points that are in line with their conservative world view and the local media is more than willing to give it to them.

Good morning Jane and Kat,

Typical Tea Potty tactics. One they never debate based on facts, just make up stuff to inflame people. Unless bargaining rights somehow fits into their agenda, they won't talk about it and two everyone who doesn't agree with them is bent toward violence and bullying. They are merely God fearing victimized Christians carrying the load of the whole country on their shoulders. That last sentence is sarcasm.

I read their forums a lot and they post all kinds of violent statements towards all kinds of people/groups daily. I have no idea why someone in the media can't expose what a majority of them really are, it is out here on the internet for anyone to see.

per Abbie:
"They are merely God fearing victimized Christians carrying the load of the whole country on their shoulders"...
~self-righteously determined to crush the rights of anyone who does not agree with their world view.
I've heard them referred to elsewhere as "teajhadists".

Kat wrote:per Abbie:
"They are merely God fearing victimized Christians carrying the load of the whole country on their shoulders"...
~self-righteously determined to crush the rights of anyone who does not agree with their world view.
I've heard them referred to elsewhere as "teajhadists".

Mostly I refer to these people as an even scarier name, "average citizens of the Fox River Valley". This area has a strong tradition towards conservatism. Remember who else came from this region.

As if we didn't know and especially now that the Tea Partiers are showing up bought & paid for:

“Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions”
As the nation focuses on the efforts of Governor Scott Walker to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees in Wisconsin, new information is coming to light that reveals what is truly going on here.
Mother Jones is reporting that much of the funding behind the Walker for Governor campaign came from none other than uber-conservatives, the infamous Koch Brothers.
What’s more, the plan to kill the unions is right out of the Koch Brothers play book.
UPDATE: The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called http://www.standwithwalker.com. The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Walker.
Why are the Koch Brothers so interested in Wisconsin? They are a major business player in the state.

Remember how I said the left and right have brainwashed Americans to embrace their own demise?

Think about this collective bargaining will be outlawed. No more unions if they have their way.

The Tea Party makes me sick now.

Kat wrote:per Abbie:
"They are merely God fearing victimized Christians carrying the load of the whole country on their shoulders"...
~self-righteously determined to crush the rights of anyone who does not agree with their world view.
I've heard them referred to elsewhere as "teajhadists".

100% correct Kat, they are not nicknamed the Tealiban for nothing. Having known two personally, I tried talking to them until I realized I might as well try talking to a tree. I had been friends for years with one woman and thought she would at least consider another POV. Was I ever wrong. There is no compromising, it's their way or the highway as they say, so I took the highway. I don't know how someone filled with so much hatred for people that don't agree with them makes it through the day.

Abbie wrote:

Kat wrote:per Abbie:
"They are merely God fearing victimized Christians carrying the load of the whole country on their shoulders"...
~self-righteously determined to crush the rights of anyone who does not agree with their world view.
I've heard them referred to elsewhere as "teajhadists".

100% correct Kat, they are not nicknamed the Tealiban for nothing. Having known two personally, I tried talking to them until I realized I might as well try talking to a tree. I had been friends for years with one woman and thought she would at least consider another POV. Was I ever wrong. There is no compromising, it's their way or the highway as they say, so I took the highway. I don't know how someone filled with so much hatred for people that don't agree with them makes it through the day.

In this area a tea party person would find a lot of others that share the same belief system, so that isn't an issue. There are very few vocal liberals in this area, so it's easy to ignore them.

Read about ALEC as well. According to their web site:
The centerpiece of Task Force projects is ALEC model legislation. ALEC is the only state legislative organization that adopts policies and creates model legislation for its members to use in their states. To date, ALEC has nearly 1,000 pieces of model legislation.

So, it seems the legislatures are not writing their own bills, this group is.

Does anyone know about them?

http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Legislative_Membership&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=15449

The art of brain washing has soared to new heights with many not being able to think for themselves anymore. Deductive reasoning is falling by way of the dinosaur.

Never heard of them but from reading, they don't appear to be non-partisan which is no surprise in this political climate.

Plus it's kinda poetic, in a very sick way ... the state (WI) that gave birth to the organization of unions and so many worker's rights EVERY worker takes for granted - is the beginning of THE END of those same rights and the bargaining power of workers.

Believe this:
Wisconsin is only the beginning.

Some people are saying that ALEC is writing some of the controversial legislation. I'm still researching this. Under the link below they have "workfarce act". When I click on it I'm told that viewing this page is restricted to members.

http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Health_and_Human_Services

Here's an article on ALEC from last year. It's educational.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130891396

knarf wrote:The art of brain washing has soared to new heights with many not being able to think for themselves anymore. Deductive reasoning is falling by way of the dinosaur.

You hit the nail on the head, knarf!

JaneWI wrote:@mj, I'm glad you made it to the rally as well. The weather is going to keep me away today. My trip to Madison is about 2 hours. One of my main regrets is I couldn't stay that long yesterday, had a family birthday dinner.

Did you see anyone wearing "Legal Observer" signs? I'm still kind of curious about them.

Hi Jane & friends ~ we did see the "legal observer signs" & we asked one of them & they said they are volunteers who monitor protests & they were doing some explaining when we had to keep moving with the crowd so we didn't get to hear the whole picture. But it certainly sounded interesting I'm going to read your article when I'm done ~ we are going to leave shortly for madison & stay as long as the weather will permit us ~ fortunately we have a 4 wheel drive vehicle in the group & I volunteered to drive it as I'm not afraid of the snow but when it gets icy we will be on our way home even if we only get a few hours it will be worth it! Will update when we return ~ you said you are 2 hours away to the north or south ~ we're in Oostburg